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106

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Jurell Bastidas over Adam Szatowksi
Nikolai Nahorniak over Billy O'Donnell
Victor Lopierre over Victor Perez
Tyler Stevens over Will Lemp
Kevin Greco over Mike Schneider
Ryan Willis over Raul Retain
Braulio Ruiz over Andy Nett
Nelson Quintero over Isaac Acosta

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scherz

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Reply with quote  #2 
what happened to Peixoto?
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DV

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Reply with quote  #3 
EP and Lenning, both have shoulder issues.

Does this mean that Chapman gets the number one seed? A lot has happened in twelve months. Maybe it's a rule, but he lost to Moreno in the semis of the biggest three wall event since.

Too bad Ruiz and Nett play each other in the first round, both are spoilers. Ruiz recently beat Moreno in a one off money match and Nett showed everyone he was for real when he nabbed Szatkowski, Garner and almost Peixoto. But, he got the ten seed at these games.




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Reply with quote  #4 
Once again, the USHA manages to not pay one ounce of attention to any handball that has occurred outside of their fish bowl. Nett beats Szatkowski and gets seeded 7 spots below him. Ruiz beats Moreno less than two weeks after Moreno beats everyone and he gets a 7 for his trouble. Chapman gets 4 and 7 on Moreno and gets the nod over him, nice.

ninja edit: just noticed you wrote all of that as I was. So yes, there is an echo in here. It's still a shame. I agree with DV, Nett and Ruiz had serious potential to contend in Nationals this year, and now they're stuck playing each other in the OPENING round and into probably the best outdoor player in the world. That is pathetic.
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Reply with quote  #5 
I think it's seeded based on USHA results.  If Braulio's money match should count in the rankings as a real result then he should have no problem with his draw since he can just beat Moreno again and then coast through the rest of the draw.  Nett did not perform well at last year's nationals.  I think the results of the FBC were factored into the seedings because based on his performance last year he should be playing into one of the top seeds but instead he's 10? 
Chapman was in the finals the past two years and neither of those players are in attendance.  It's natural to assume he is the 1st seed in their absence.  Also he is going to win the entire tournament.


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Reply with quote  #6 

I think it is a toss up between Moreno and Chapman for the #1 seed and too close to call.  Moreno's loss (whether it is official or not) to Shorty in Venice beach does prove that shorty has game.  This wasn't a practice match, it was for $1500.  Moreno's loss, if used, would have dropped him in my book to #2 and Chapman would be at #1.  Chapman is masterful in three wall and only lost last year because of his late round legs.  If this were 4 wall and if Brady and Chapman didn't enter, then the USHA would give their highest ranked player the #1 seed.  Not the previous year's finalist (2nd place finalist).  Since three wall doesn't have ranking points or a ranking system, then why not use results from throughout the year and compile a make-shift ranking system to help with seeds?

Andy Nett and Shorty should NOT be playing each other in the first round. 

The USHA homepage poll says it best.... 

Nett is the 10 seed, but he is listed on a poll where only 6 players are listed.  The results of that poll have Moreno as a fan favorite, then "other" (similar to a write-in vote)  as the #2 fan favorite (this is an indication that fans believe someone not listed is a favorite (ie. Shorty), or just a culmination of players.  Regardless, Nett is voted 4th by the fans (3rd if you remove Peixoto; who is no longer in the tourney) 

How does the 3rd best vote getter receive the 10th seed?  Why is Nett even listed as a player in the first place?  Nett is there because of his FBC/WPH success at KC, but his efforts aren't recognized in the seeds.

Shorty and Andy could be two of the best stories this year, along with Moreno, Bastidas and Fink; yet all are in the same bracket.


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106

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Reply with quote  #7 
Shorty hasn't played in the Nationals in like 5 years.  If anything he should get a lower seed.  Nett played into EP last year and lost convincingly.  There is nothing to go on for either of their seedings except Shorty won a money game.  If you're going to seed not going on results and just going on ability then ability then you can't take it on a game-by-game basis.  Shorty beating Moreno in one match says nothing about his ability to play well in multiple rounds.  He's an unknown commodity in this year's tournament and I think he did end up in a decent spot in the draw.  With such a small draw you're going to run into a high seed within a round or two.  Participation possibly should be awarded but these other players in the draw were not afforded the opportunity to play Luis for money at their home courts.

  Nett should possibly be a bit higher but wasn't the FBC in KC played with the fireball?  That ball has been rumoured to be the driving force behind Nett's victories since it was said by many that most of his points came on service winners.  I watched him serve last year in Toledo and was impressed but all of the serves seemed to go back to the wall and in KC they did not.  If he is the breakout player of the year then he should get a great seed next year and have to prove himself throughout this season. 

What I'm saying is that neither of these players have a good result in a tournament played with the Red Ace in 3-wall recently.  Nett played a NYer in 3wall last year and then had an early exit at the hands of Peixoto and played with a NYer in the doubles and lost early.  NYers are generally not great 3wallers so those results can't really lend any insight into his game.  Shorty has not been around the past few years so it's tough to quantify his chances to win.  They both were seeded over players who attended in previous years and won at least 1 match which means that someone somewhere was notified of their recent results and took them into account when seeding the draw.

It is possible that Shorty is a real threat and will go far in this tournament.  There is no way for anyone to know that beforehand though aside from 1 match and that is what makes him a hopeful and not a top seed.

 Nett? nah....although perhaps in a different spot he would win a match or two before being ousted by one of the top 4 seeds.  He hasn't earned this though.



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Reply with quote  #8 

The one player that no one has mentioned is Nikolai Nahorniak. He is seeded 8.

He lost a close match to Peixoto in KC. Also he has had good success in some strong Chicago 3-wall tourneys over the years and is the best Chicago 3-wall singles player right now. Just because the USHA doesn't have any other 3-wall tournaments doesn't mean that the Nationals should be the only results used. It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out that he should be the 5 seed.

My opinion:
1. Chapman
2. Moreno
3. Fink
4. Szatkowski
5. Nahorniak
6. Nett
7. Morales
8. Bastitas
9. Ruiz
10. O'Donnell

With this, I could switch 6 and 7. I could also interchange any of hte 8-10.

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Reply with quote  #9 

I agree with that post from Billy and the Nik reference.  Nik is a sleeper and Mehilos is too.  There have been many 3 wall events to use rankings from and it is obvious they were not used.  I am not saying that Nett and Shorty's seeds are wrong, what I am saying is playing each other in the first round is unfortunate.  I am also pointing out that the USHA pole has Nett listed as one of 6 players, yet is ranked 10th?  Are the other 4 not sexy enough to make the poll?

Red Ball according to Mehilos is too slow; according to Moreno its exactly like the Blue ball; according to Chapman it's too fast.

I'm not so sure I agree with Billy's seeding of Dane, but his top 10 is almost spot on.

This quote is alarming: 
Quote:
Shorty hasn't played in the Nationals in like 5 years.  If anything he should get a lower seed. 


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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmehilos

The one player that no one has mentioned is Nikolai Nahorniak. He is seeded 8.

He lost a close match to Peixoto in KC. Also he has had good success in some strong Chicago 3-wall tourneys over the years and is the best Chicago 3-wall singles player right now. Just because the USHA doesn't have any other 3-wall tournaments doesn't mean that the Nationals should be the only results used. It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out that he should be the 5 seed.

My opinion:
1. Chapman
2. Moreno
3. Fink
4. Szatkowski
5. Nahorniak
6. Nett
7. Morales
8. Bastitas
9. Ruiz
10. O'Donnell

With this, I could switch 6 and 7. I could also interchange any of hte 8-10.



I just watched the match in KC...It wasn't close.  Nikolai might lose his first match.  He had a tiebreaker with Hillgren I thought and Hillgren is primarily a 4wall player.  It doesn't seem right to bump Morales who is a perennial quarterfinalist. 

Being the best in Chicago should not make you the clear 5 seed.  Chicago is not famous for winning in Toledo.  You have 1 good player.  That is Dane.  Chicago is famous for Lake Forest, which churns out Open players who go on to never win anything in pro events.

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Reply with quote  #11 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 106

NYers are generally not great 3wallers so those results can't really lend any insight into his game. 



humph! 

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scherz

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Reply with quote  #12 
106: for what its worth, your last post is too dumb to respond to...so yeah
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106

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Reply with quote  #13 
You think Nikolai should be the 5 seed with 0 results at Toledo and a close first game against EP?  I responded in kind with ridiculous statements of my own.

If I had to seed this tournament I would do it as follows:

1- DC
2- LM
3- DS
4- DF
5- CM
6- AN
7- BO/TB
8- BR



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Reply with quote  #14 
If you don't seed players off their rankings, then you seed off their talent.  It's not very wise to base your seeds on a tourney that took place 12 months ago.  12 months back doesn't determine current talent.  In Andy Nett's case, he has shown the most improvement.  I like Dane Szatkowski as a person and handball player, but he hasn't shown any improvement to get a three seed.  He's respected as a top 3 wall player and his reputation will always gather him invites and top seeds, but he is not and should not be #3 or #4 unless you use just the results from last year's 3 wall event (nationals) only.  If you factor in other results, then his stock has fallen just a bit. (ie. 5-7 seed).

These aren't my seeds: (rather, who I think are purely the best- no rankings or results or formulas used)

Moreno
Chapman
Ruiz
Fink
Nett
Nahorniak
Szatkowski
Morales
Bastidas
Odonnell

Moreno- Beat Chapman in their last match-up
Chapman- Made the finals last year
Ruiz-  Underground player that isn't, but should be respected
Fink- Took Moreno to two breakers in the last 12 months (both majors both 3 wall).  Out of respect, Fink could be moved to the 3 spot.
Nett-  Beat Dane Szatkowski the last time they played
Nahorniak-  Plays in the Chicago area and is above Szat and Mehilos locally, why not nationally?
Szatkowski-  Behind Nahorniak locally, but ahead of Mehilos by a hair
Morales- has had a few good wins in three wall against a couple guys above him (on my list).  Could be seeded as high as 6.
Bastidas and O'Donnell are innerchangable.  This matchup (if played) would gather a 11-10 breaker and Tyree would probably win; but one thing is for certain, Bastidas is having a better outdoor year. 

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106

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Reply with quote  #15 
Ok...If nahorniak is the best player in Chicago then he certainly should be given a good seed even without participation in the Nationals.  Wasn't he though?  I feel like in Toledo the only bad seeds are the ones that played one of the top 4 seeds before they made it into the money.  Once you are into the quarters (this is what they usually pay to) then you are freerolling and anything can happen.  The absence of Sean and Emmett has this tournament looking wideopen this year and I think that makes the seeding of 5-8 less important.

Why is Mehilos not in the singles draw.  He is good at the handball.


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Reply with quote  #16 
I am looking at this draw and i dont think it is that much different in player strength than kc 3 fireball classic. A lot of the same players and some notable exceptions (peixoto, garner, little, mehilos). That tourney should be more heavily weighted than one that took place 12 months ago especially when the quality of the field is so close (if not better in KC). Maybe the USHA doesnt know our results yet as it seemed they acted like it didnt even take place.  Nett is the biggest mistake to me. How is that you beat a top 5 player in the world(Garner), and supposed top 5 outdoor player(Dane) 2 months ago and get seeded 10th?. I know tyree is good but seeding him ahead of nahorniak, nett, ruiz is bad. I guess they put the 3 wall junior nationals results in play over a very well attended pro stop in KC, because what has he done to get this seeding(lost in round of 16 last year, now a 6 seed this year??)? This seeding clearly says to me that the USHA gave no thought to the tournament in KC and are clearly irritated that we were able to draw just as good as them or better for our tourney than they could for their national tourney so they are going to pretend it didnt happen.
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Reply with quote  #17 
This tournament is clearly seeded based on last years Toledo results and some preference was given to Nett and Ruiz by not having them in a play-in game even though they didn't participate.  I think the FBC was factored in and that's why are there even though they didn't have results last year.

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Reply with quote  #18 
By the way, before anyone says anything, i was referring to what tyree has done in pro stops and national tourneys (3 and 4 wall) not as an amateur. His amateur record is incredible but does not belong in the discussion here. ( just pointing this out because i know this is a hot button topic and i dont want a 4 page discussion about him and chapman, again.)

106, Nett did participate in Toledo last year and got just as far as tyree. He got rolled by peixoto but just about everyone did last year if you look at the scores outside when he played chapman. Why does he deserve preferential treatment over nett or ruiz? His 3 wall record does not merit that. (once again i am talking pro 3 wall). Just curious but why didnt tyree come to KC?? He is traveling all over the country for tourneys but doesnt come to one in the middle of the country with the most prize money in a form of handball he obviously has some serious skill in? That would have answered a lot of our questions we are having now.

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106

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Reply with quote  #19 
I thought Tyree beat Armando last year.  Am I wrong about that?

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Reply with quote  #20 
No, Armando came into the tourney with 13 stitches on his right index finger. He played and beat Tyree and after the game his finger looked like ground sausage. Armando played into Emmett and lost in the quarters.

Tyree defeated Dan Mcnabney in the rd of 32, then lost to Mando in the 16s.

Nett defeated Monster in the 32s and lost to Peixoto in the 16s.

Bastidas is this year's 6 seed
Nett is this year's 10 seed
Monster is the 11 seed

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Reply with quote  #21 
Didnt tyree serve almost entirely with his left in that armando match n take what he could with his left during the rallies? His shoulder was banged up i think.
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106

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Reply with quote  #22 
it says it was a tiebreaker on the website

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Reply with quote  #23 
If anyone wants to donate bags of sand by taking O'Donnell vs Nahorniak, please let me know.

The bottom line about the seeds is NOT how guys like Nahorniak, Nett, and Ruiz got screwed. They should not be in the top 3 or 4, so it doesn't matter too much. However, my point is that the top two seeds have much tougher quarterfinal matches than they should.
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Reply with quote  #24 
Ruiz could actually win a national championship. He is that good. He was good enough to get the attention of the seeding committee when they gave him the seven seed, but not good enough to get a higher seed (which he may deserve).
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Reply with quote  #25 
What about the seeding for the Womens Open...

Bailey Chandler is seeded 8th, I think she could be at least 6th. A drop down would be nice to play out for 3&4 and 5&6.

1. Megan Mehilos
2. Tracy Davis
3. Samantha England
4. Jennifer Hinman
5. Theresa McCourt
6. Sandy Ng 
7. Danielle Daskalakis 
8. Bailey Chandler



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106

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Reply with quote  #26 
I sort of agree.  It's too bad there are 0 women's events to seed off of.  Bailey's pretty good though.

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Reply with quote  #27 

Bailey isn't the 8th best player in this event, but... how do you seed it?  What do you go by?
If Courtney Peixoto would have entered where would she be seeded?  4th?  3rd?

Bailey played Courtney in front of a packed crowd at the KCAC WPH Pro Stop, as an exibition match with some $$$ on the line and Bailey won.  Personally, Bailey would have been my 4th seed or 5th seed at these games.

The bigger thing to point out is Sandy Ng.  She's got game!  Not sure Bailey could be seeded above her.


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Reply with quote  #28 

Sandy should be #4.  She beat the Hin last year and has improved a lot in the last year (from age 16 to 17).  She's capable of winning it this year. 

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Reply with quote  #29 

Based on what I saw at Venice Beach, Sandy is the future of Women's handball. She may have the best opposite hand in the game.

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106

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Reply with quote  #30 
Didn't that kid just win the 1wall Nationals?  Haven't seen her play but I'll be in Toledo and I look forward to it.

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