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MyNameIsMikeIAmAJerk
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    11/02/09 at 11:20 AM
  Reply with quote#1

I was watching the video from the World's.  Everytime Shanks is taking a shot off the backwall, Jordon ( sp?) runs up and jumps in front of Willoughby or McCarthy (dependent on who is the right side player).  I know in 1wall this is illegal and I was wondering if this type of boxing out is also considered dirty play in 4wall.  I've never seen anyone do it before and I know if I were standing there in a doubles match and someone ran around in front of me and planted themselves there while my opponent was shooting I'd spaz out.  McCarthy and his partner never reacted though.  Thanks in advance for your thoughtful, well-written responses.


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    11/02/09 at 11:22 AM
  Reply with quote#2

I hope it is legal!!

If not, I will be taking up Frisbee Golf again.

After I stepped in front of Sean Lenning in Idaho he said, "You can't do that.  It's illegal." I began to wonder if it really was??  Naty Sr told me to place my right foot around the opponent's (right side) left, without making contact; as this would establish court position. But, I don't think I'm moving in the act of "shooting"??

If it is disallowed in 1-wall, maybe it is in 4-wall.

Where is Sove?


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mglatzer
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    11/02/09 at 12:42 PM
  Reply with quote#3

What the rules say, on one wall and four wall, is that if you run in front of your opponent while you partner is hitting the ball, and then your partner's shot causes a hinder on you, then it is an avoidable hinder. 

In my opinion the rule is just overly complicated and basically just wrong.  The rule is wrong because it does not describe how the game is really played.

 The rule should basically just say that when your partner is hitting the ball you can't run in front of your opponent, nor can you crowd him on the side or in back.  Players who do this ruin the game and I try to avoid them.  I don't know why but there seem to be a lot more 4 wall players who do this than 1 wall players. 

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    11/02/09 at 01:57 PM
  Reply with quote#4

1-Wall Legal Hinder PDF Print E-mail

Over the years I've received many questions relating to the rules of handball. Without doubt the majority of them deal with hinders. To further complicate the matter one-wall handball allows a player to legally hinder the receiving side. The cover shot on the October 1994 issue of Handball should give subscribers an idea of what a legal hinder is.

Standing still (Rule 4.7B1 of the 1995 USHA One-Wall Rule Book) states "If a player attempting to play a ball is interfered with by an opponent, who, after his side has played the ball, was perfectly still in front or aside the player, it is NOT a hinder.". In one-wall referees should not call screen balls. Unlike three and four-wall handball you do NOT have to let the receiving side see the ball. In addition the defensive side, that has just served or returned the ball, is NOT obligated to move so the offensive side may go straight in to the ball. If you observe a game between seasoned players you will notice that just the opposite is occurring.

One-wall handball is quite similar to basketball where players set picks and constantly jockey for position under the backboard. Remember that the important part of this rule is "in front or aside". Don't get hung up on "perfectly still". You don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting a hinder if the ball is down by your opponent's foot and he wiggles his ear.

After a recent conversation with John Bike Jr., who has participated in one-wall events since he was a junior player, I realized that the situation of a player moving back into an opponent needed to be addressed. If a player of the side that has just hit the ball stands perfectly still, but his opponent moves back into him in trying to play the ball, not necessarily making contact, and is thus kept from having a fair chance to play to ball, it is a hinder. It is the duty of the player farther from the wall to get out of the way.

To make it simple just think of driving a car. If you arrive at an intersection with a broken traffic light it would be far from safe for everyone to move at once in all different directions. When the light is fully operationally traffic can flow without danger. If the light is green it is your turn to proceed, and vice versa when the light is red. Continuing along this avenue of thought we all know that when the car in front stops it is our duty not to rear end it. The majority of the time players are looking a the front wall and for safety reasons similar cardinal rules apply to driving motor vehicles and creating legal blocks. In handball your side has the right of way when it is on offense.

By now your probably wondering "How do I retrieve the ball if my opponent hits it in front of himself, or his partner, and stands still?". If you flip back to the October 1994 cover you'll see two of your choices. Paul Williams exhibits the first choice which is to play the ball from behind your opponent. His partner, Eduardo Maisonet, quickly determined that Paul wouldn't be successful and tried to help out by taking the long road and going around the blocker. In the semifinals (pictured) you'll notice a controversial situation which arose. The top referees shared the common opinion that Paul was within the intent of the rules which allow a receiver to play the ball but not his opponent. On the other hand if the referee felt that the receiver played his opponent and not the ball the player should either be charged with an avoidable hinder or defaulted. In Torres' creation of a legal hinder he submits himself to certain inherent risks. The solution is a simple one. If you do not want to take the risks do not create the situation. It is obvious that this contact might have distracted, or prevented, Al from making the return. Physical contact is NOT an automatic hinder and it is up to the referee as to whether or not the contact impeded the play and a hinder should be called.

Now that we have an understanding of the legal hinder I'll make you aware of the following rule differences:

 

  • A legally served ball that travels between the legs of the server's partner is NOT an automatic "hinder serve". Remember that this call is based on movement by the serving side. The penalties are the same as the screen serve.
  • During a rally if a player on the serving side creates a hinder called by the referee, the serving side starts the ensuing service with a fault, except if the hinder was on the serve. I'm a firm believer that this "hinder fault" rule should be adopted by three and four-wall handball.
  • A player in his attempt to create a legal hinder is entitled to remain still until the last moment before moving to avoid being struck by his side's return. This privilege does NOT grant him immunity from the rules governing avoidable hinders (see rule 4.8).

    In summary once you've played one-wall you'll notice that the hinders are actually quite similar to three and four-wall. The golden rule to remember is the side which has just struck the ball is entitled to stand still in front or aside of the opponent(s).


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    hballfred
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        11/02/09 at 02:01 PM
      Reply with quote#5

    In 4-wall you can't run in front of your opponent when your partner is hitting the ball.


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        11/02/09 at 02:16 PM
      Reply with quote#6

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hballfred

    In 4-wall you can't run in front of your opponent when your partner is hitting the ball.

    Does anyone know where to buy frisbees in Tucson?


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        11/02/09 at 11:15 PM
      Reply with quote#7

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Albert

    1-Wall Legal Hinder PDF Print E-mail

    Over the years I've received many questions relating to the rules of handball. Without doubt the majority of them deal with hinders. To further complicate the matter one-wall handball allows a player to legally hinder the receiving side. The cover shot on the October 1994 issue of Handball should give subscribers an idea of what a legal hinder is.

    Standing still (Rule 4.7B1 of the 1995 USHA One-Wall Rule Book) states "If a player attempting to play a ball is interfered with by an opponent, who, after his side has played the ball, was perfectly still in front or aside the player, it is NOT a hinder.". In one-wall referees should not call screen balls. Unlike three and four-wall handball you do NOT have to let the receiving side see the ball. In addition the defensive side, that has just served or returned the ball, is NOT obligated to move so the offensive side may go straight in to the ball. If you observe a game between seasoned players you will notice that just the opposite is occurring.

    One-wall handball is quite similar to basketball where players set picks and constantly jockey for position under the backboard. Remember that the important part of this rule is "in front or aside". Don't get hung up on "perfectly still". You don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting a hinder if the ball is down by your opponent's foot and he wiggles his ear.

    After a recent conversation with John Bike Jr., who has participated in one-wall events since he was a junior player, I realized that the situation of a player moving back into an opponent needed to be addressed. If a player of the side that has just hit the ball stands perfectly still, but his opponent moves back into him in trying to play the ball, not necessarily making contact, and is thus kept from having a fair chance to play to ball, it is a hinder. It is the duty of the player farther from the wall to get out of the way.

    To make it simple just think of driving a car. If you arrive at an intersection with a broken traffic light it would be far from safe for everyone to move at once in all different directions. When the light is fully operationally traffic can flow without danger. If the light is green it is your turn to proceed, and vice versa when the light is red. Continuing along this avenue of thought we all know that when the car in front stops it is our duty not to rear end it. The majority of the time players are looking a the front wall and for safety reasons similar cardinal rules apply to driving motor vehicles and creating legal blocks. In handball your side has the right of way when it is on offense.

    By now your probably wondering "How do I retrieve the ball if my opponent hits it in front of himself, or his partner, and stands still?". If you flip back to the October 1994 cover you'll see two of your choices. Paul Williams exhibits the first choice which is to play the ball from behind your opponent. His partner, Eduardo Maisonet, quickly determined that Paul wouldn't be successful and tried to help out by taking the long road and going around the blocker. In the semifinals (pictured) you'll notice a controversial situation which arose. The top referees shared the common opinion that Paul was within the intent of the rules which allow a receiver to play the ball but not his opponent. On the other hand if the referee felt that the receiver played his opponent and not the ball the player should either be charged with an avoidable hinder or defaulted. In Torres' creation of a legal hinder he submits himself to certain inherent risks. The solution is a simple one. If you do not want to take the risks do not create the situation. It is obvious that this contact might have distracted, or prevented, Al from making the return. Physical contact is NOT an automatic hinder and it is up to the referee as to whether or not the contact impeded the play and a hinder should be called.

    Now that we have an understanding of the legal hinder I'll make you aware of the following rule differences:

     

  • A legally served ball that travels between the legs of the server's partner is NOT an automatic "hinder serve". Remember that this call is based on movement by the serving side. The penalties are the same as the screen serve.
  • During a rally if a player on the serving side creates a hinder called by the referee, the serving side starts the ensuing service with a fault, except if the hinder was on the serve. I'm a firm believer that this "hinder fault" rule should be adopted by three and four-wall handball.
  • A player in his attempt to create a legal hinder is entitled to remain still until the last moment before moving to avoid being struck by his side's return. This privilege does NOT grant him immunity from the rules governing avoidable hinders (see rule 4.8).

    In summary once you've played one-wall you'll notice that the hinders are actually quite similar to three and four-wall. The golden rule to remember is the side which has just struck the ball is entitled to stand still in front or aside of the opponent(s).


  • 1 wall is stupid.  /thread





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        11/04/09 at 06:04 AM
      Reply with quote#8

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hballfred

    In 4-wall you can't run in front of your opponent when your partner is hitting the ball.

    I've heard people say that a lot, as well as a lot of other made up rules about things they don't like having done to them.  Now, I'm not saying that the above statement is incorrect, but I've never noticed such a statement in the rulebook.  Is it in there? 


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        11/04/09 at 06:14 AM
      Reply with quote#9

    B. Yielding fair access. While attempting to return the ball, the offensive player is entitled to fair access to see and return the ball. It is the duty of the defensive side that has just served or returned the ball to yield position so the offensive side will not be required to go around an opponent. In the judgment of the referee, however, the offensive player must make a reasonable effort to move toward the ball and have a reasonable chance to return the ball before a hinder is called. The referee should be liberal in calling hinders to discourage playing the ball in such a way that an opponent cannot see it or swing at it until it is too late. When a player attempts a killshot in front of himself/herself and his/her position interferes with his/her opponent's attempt to retrieve the ball, the referee should give the benefit of any doubt as to whether the ball was retrievable to the defensive player. It is not a hinder when a player hinders his/her partner.

    Part 4, Rule 4.7.B: Interpretation No. 12

    The referee must remember that if the ball is judged to be un-retrievable, a hinder should not be called no matter what kind of interference takes place. However, if the referee is in doubt, the benefit of that doubt should go to the player attempting to retrieve the ball and the hinder should be called.



    AND some valuable info here:

    A. Failure to move. A player does not move sufficiently to allow his/her opponent his/her shot. This may include serves.

    Part 4, Rule 4.8.A: Interpretation No. 13

    The legal position a player can assume when the opponent is hitting the ball from behind that player is at an angle to the left or right side of the ball being hit, as long as that position is assumed before the opponent begins his/her stroke. A player must move out of the way of the opponent even though it may mean moving to an undesirable court position. It is no excuse that the player claims he/she did not know where the opponent was. He/she must move. This is also the case when a player gives the opponent a back wall setup. It is the obligation of the defensive player to look over his/her shoulder and, if necessary, move out of the way. A player cannot line up directly in front of the opponent's back-wall shot. If a player assumes such a position and there is a collision, or if the player is struck by the ball, the hinder is avoidable.

    B. Blocking. A player moves into a position that effects a block or crowds his/her opponent about to return the ball; or, in doubles, one partner creates a hinder by moving in front of an opponent as his/her partner is returning the ball.

    Part 4, Rule 4.8 B: Interpretation No. 14

    This call is just the opposite of the "failure to move" avoidable hinder. When a player "creates" a hinder by his/her movement, it is also avoidable. Sometimes a player, in the effort to get into a better court position, will cause contact with an opponent who is about to hit the ball, or a player will move in so close to an opponent who is hitting the ball as to cause a possibility of body contact. In either case, an avoidable hinder should be called. It is also an avoidable hinder if one player, just as his/her partner is hitting the ball, moves directly in front of an opponent creating a hinder.





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        11/04/09 at 07:15 AM
      Reply with quote#10

    Uh oh, that last section on blocking looks like bad news.  


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        11/04/09 at 07:38 AM
      Reply with quote#11

    Frisbee Golf


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        11/04/09 at 07:42 AM
      Reply with quote#12

    If the rules were followed to the letter of the law then the art of doubles handball would be lost forever..

    mglatzer
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        11/04/09 at 07:43 AM
      Reply with quote#13

    "It is also an avoidable hinder if one player, just as his/her partner is hitting the ball, moves directly in front of an opponent creating a hinder."

    As I said before, this is not written correctly.  It says that you can run directly in front of your opponent when your partner is hitting the ball, as long as you don't create a hinder, which is clearly not correct.  It also does not state, which it should, that you may not crowd your opponent by getting too close to their side or behind them when your partner is hitting the ball, whether or not it causes a subsequent hinder.
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        11/04/09 at 07:51 AM
      Reply with quote#14

    ".....moves directly in front of an opponent"
     
    I'd like the definition of "directly in front of"
     
    I like to wrap one foot (my right around their left), around my opponent during rallies.  Certainly I am not directly in front of??

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        11/04/09 at 08:25 AM
      Reply with quote#15

    Ah, I believe that move is known as "The Rookie".


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        11/04/09 at 08:50 AM
      Reply with quote#16

    It seems that if I do it after THEY shoot it is legal, but after WE shoot it is not.

    Emmett and I will test this out at the Y2K in a couple weeks.  Ha!

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        11/04/09 at 12:51 PM
      Reply with quote#17

    "A. Failure to move. A player does not move sufficiently to allow his/her opponent his/her shot. This may include serves.

    Part 4, Rule 4.8.A: Interpretation No. 13

    The legal position a player can assume when the opponent is hitting the ball from behind that player is at an angle to the left or right side of the ball being hit, as long as that position is assumed before the opponent begins his/her stroke. A player must move out of the way of the opponent even though it may mean moving to an undesirable court position. It is no excuse that the player claims he/she did not know where the opponent was. He/she must move. This is also the case when a player gives the opponent a back wall setup. It is the obligation of the defensive player to look over his/her shoulder and, if necessary, move out of the way. A player cannot line up directly in front of the opponent's back-wall shot. If a player assumes such a position and there is a collision, or if the player is struck by the ball, the hinder is avoidable.

    B. Blocking. A player moves into a position that effects a block or crowds his/her opponent about to return the ball; or, in doubles, one partner creates a hinder by moving in front of an opponent as his/her partner is returning the ball. Part 4, Rule 4.8 B: Interpretation No. 14

    This call is just the opposite of the "failure to move" avoidable hinder. When a player "creates" a hinder by his/her movement, it is also avoidable. Sometimes a player, in the effort to get into a better court position, will cause contact with an opponent who is about to hit the ball, or a player will move in so close to an opponent who is hitting the ball as to cause a possibility of body contact. In either case, an avoidable hinder should be called. It is also an avoidable hinder if one player, just as his/her partner is hitting the ball, moves directly in front of an opponent creating a hinder. "

    I hope and PRAY Otis Lemus reads these rules (and perhaps applies them after furthering his feeble understanding of said rules).

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