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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #1 
I posted a look at Naty Jr.'s serve on the video site. It's slow motion with pauses at critical points in the serve. There's a high definition version and also Windows Media for those unable to download QuickTime 7.

Check it out at
http://www.handballvideo.com

Naty,
Can you describe what's going on there. How are you able to generate so much power (other than the good genes)?
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Alvarado

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Reply with quote  #2 

Jeff,

 

Wow! That a great action shot, you really got the power stroke just right!

 

Breaking that serve down??

 

Well power, timing, genetics, weight transfer, proper shoulder rotation, striking the ball at the correct point of impact and height. So to make an attempt at breaking it down would very difficult.

 

There's a frame there where I'm hitting the ball and it's the same exact stroke and same exact motion my dad has(1987 Handball Magazine Nationals Edition, front cover), yet we have different swing habits.

 

Who's the guy to my left sitting down looking the wrong way? Does he know we're playing for CL CUP??


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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarado

Jeff,

 

Wow! That a great action shot, you really got the power stroke just right!

 

Breaking that serve down??

 

Well power, timing, genetics, weight transfer, proper shoulder rotation, striking the ball at the correct point of impact and height. So to make an attempt at breaking it down would very difficult.

 

There's a frame there where I'm hitting the ball and it's the same exact stroke and same exact motion my dad has(1987 Handball Magazine Nationals Edition, front cover), yet we have different swing habits.

 

Who's the guy to my left sitting down looking the wrong way? Does he know we're playing for CL CUP??

I would say it is  power, timing, genetics, weight transfer, proper shoulder rotation, striking the ball at the correct point of impact and height.

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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarado
There's a frame there where I'm hitting the ball and it's the same exact stroke and same exact motion my dad has(1987 Handball Magazine Nationals Edition, front cover), yet we have different swing habits.


It's interesting you mentioned that. Back when I played baseball, we'd spend a lot of time studying the best Major League pitchers. Although they appear to have very different styles, they all have critical points in their deliveries that look almost identical. Same for handball.
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Reply with quote  #5 
[I]You were a pitcher? ....<DELETED- MORE DUE TO EXTREME LAMENESS THAN OFFENSIVENESS.>
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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #6 
Please note the new phrasing...
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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada
You were a pitcher? INSERT LAME JOKE HERE.
I am also surprised Opie was once a pitcher.  He just seems like such a nice person.

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Reply with quote  #8 

And i get berated for drawing attention to the brave young americans being butchered daily in Iraq on a false pretence YET these boys get to make thinly veiled homophobic remarks...

 

Where is the justice?

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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GemmaFerguson

And i get berated for drawing attention to the brave young americans being butchered daily in Iraq on a false pretence YET these boys get to make thinly veiled homophobic remarks...

 

Where is the justice?

I was talking baseball, Sean.  Your cerebral twin in Canada named Canada was talking the shiite.

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Reply with quote  #10 

I'm sick telling you Americans: one of your few redeeming features is that you're close to Canada.

 

Tiocfaidh ar la. 

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RobPearse

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Reply with quote  #11 

Great slow-mo of Naty Jr's serve.

Power first starts with proper spine mechanics, then transferring power from the feet up the legs through the spine to the arms.

The only "imperfection" in Naty's mechanics I can see is that he could improve his lumbar (low back) spine positioning to enable better thoracic rotation (mid and upper back) and shoulder rotation when hitting the ball.

But it is pretty damn good regardless.

If the lumbar spine is flexed when hitting the ball it will affect the rest of the "chain of movement" above it.

Try slouching in a chair and then externally rotate your arm like you are going to throw a ball. Now sit with good posture and try the same thing. You will notice how much farther back you can externally rotate the humerus (upper arm).

Proper spine mechanics is the first key to power.

 

Just some info for those interested.

Rob

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BenThum

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thanks for trying to explain the mechanics of the swing, Rob.
Wish I could understand it better. When I was playing baseball
(don't laugh) I benefitted from a good hitting coach and
upped my batting average considerably once I found the groove.

I wonder where the good swinging coaches are in handball.
Naty seems to have found one.
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BenThum

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Reply with quote  #13 
Jeff, excellent work on the new video site!!!
You are breaking new ground in showcasing The Game.
Handball has never seen anything like this.
Breaking down Naty's serve via slo-mo video is priceless.

Keep up the good work!
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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobPearse

Great slow-mo of Naty Jr's serve.

Power first starts with proper spine mechanics, then transferring power from the feet up the legs through the spine to the arms.

The only "imperfection" in Naty's mechanics I can see is that he could improve his lumbar (low back) spine positioning to enable better thoracic rotation (mid and upper back) and shoulder rotation when hitting the ball.

But it is pretty damn good regardless.

If the lumbar spine is flexed when hitting the ball it will affect the rest of the "chain of movement" above it.

Try slouching in a chair and then externally rotate your arm like you are going to throw a ball. Now sit with good posture and try the same thing. You will notice how much farther back you can externally rotate the humerus (upper arm).

Proper spine mechanics is the first key to power.

 

Just some info for those interested.

Rob

Varsity Rob, I hereby nominate you to give a serving mechanics clinic at this year's 4-wall Nationals (with live player demonstratation of said technicques).  The beer is on me at the Los Cabs tikki bar afterwards.

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Reply with quote  #15 

Rob,

 

Knowing Naty, like I do, he will go in the court and try your suggestion!  In fact, he will probably call you for a better explanation!  Upon my visit to the Bike's and Naty x2, I learned that Jr. is constantly "tweaking" his serve to keep up with the JONES'.  He has some new moves for the Nationals (not on film), and his "serve coach" (Al Moore and Naty Sr.) have Naty focusing on:  Where to position the feet in the box, where to drop the ball, how low to let the ball drop before initial impact, where to hit the ball (on the front wall), what spin to put on it, when to open the hips, and so much more!

 

I guarantee NATY will use Rob's suggestions.

 

I don't remember who my doubles partner was at the time, but I think it was John Bike??  Naty was playing with Al Moore and went on a serving rampage.  He hit 10, or so, nonreturnable aces in one set.  The strange thing was, he was doing it by hitting cracks at the short-line (left), short-line (right), deep (left), and deep (right).  Then, he would sneak in a slider.  He had 6 different "effective" serves, and all of them were ACES.

 

If you want to film every one of these serves, just take a trip to Victorville on any M, W, F (at 4pm).  This is where the CLINIC is put on!

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johnlost24

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Reply with quote  #16 

whenever i hit a lot of drive serves in a match, my dominant arm hurts around where my pectoral muscle meets my upper arm. i know it's from bad form but can't figure out what i'm doing wrong.

 

anybody got any suggestions?

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Reply with quote  #17 

Johnlost,

 

your request would've been dealt with by SD's titbits which I'm starting up again soon...

 

for now however here is your answer:

 

You are stretching for the ball (perhaps not on serve but during rallies). 

 

Get fit and make contact with the ball closer to your body.

 

That is all.

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Alvarado

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Reply with quote  #18 

WPHL Boarder's,

 

Sorry so late on the response. I had my left eye re-done with the Lasik procedure yesterday. Hope this one works?

 

Rob,

 

What a great eye you have for this simple yet important area on my serve. I will definitely be contacting you on my lumbar positioning. I understand what your saying now I need to know how to implement it.

 

Signed,

 

STUDENT!


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Naty Alvarado Jr.
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Jeff

The Chief
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Reply with quote  #19 
Since Naty mentioned some similarities to his dad's serve, I posted a side by side comparison of the two. Naty Sr. from the 1990 Nationals and Jr. from The Casey-Lawlor Cup last October. You can definitely see the family resemblance.
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Alvarado

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Reply with quote  #20 

Aside from the angle....it's a perfect match! With Jeff Kastner and technology....Handball has hope.


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Naty Alvarado Jr.
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BenThum

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Reply with quote  #21 
Very cool and informative, Jeff.

Reminds me of precision swimming in a way.

As Marvis Frazier (Joe's son) said after clobbering an opponent:

"Well, I guess the chip didn't fall too far from the block."

Only in Marvis' case he would eventually be proved wrong.

Naty's chip is a whole lot closer to that chopping block.
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RobPearse

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Reply with quote  #22 

Please understand that my response regarding Naty's serve was from purely a physiological standpoint. You can have poor mechanics and still have a good serve.

Naty's spine mechanics are very good and much better than most players. But most of the top players all use pretty good spine mechanics or their shoulders would fall apart pretty quickly.

No one can have and maintain perfect spine mechanics all the time. But think of it this way, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If the spine is the weakest link, then you are really in trouble.

Improving Naty's lumbar spine positioning would probably not improve his serve. But it could help decrease stress on the shoulder while serving by increasing his external rotation.

By all means, Naty is the king of serves. I am pretty sure I can not show him anything to make his serve better. But I can help with mechanics to decrease undue stress on joints.

Jerry, I will help you out anytime we can get together. But I am sorry, I am pretty sure I cannot play in LA this year and I will only be there Sat and Sun for the board meeting.

Rob

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Albert

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Reply with quote  #23 

Why are they dropping the ball with the same hand that they'll use to strike the ball? I always felt that it was advantageous, especially when you have nine foot to use in your approach (yes, in 1-wall it is 9'). I know that 3 & -wall only have a 5' approach but it still seems that you'd be better off dropping the ball with the hand that isn't going to strike the ball.

 

I guess the bottom line is if it works why fix it.


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Albert
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BenThum

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Reply with quote  #24 
Thanks to Jeff's precision video alignment of the Alvarado serve(s)
we mortals can now carefully observe the mechanical motions of
two of the best serves in the game - up close and personal.

A bit like a baseball player being able to watch the slow-motion
swing mechanics of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds side by side.

It's a thing of beauty. Hats off to you, Jeff the K!
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TStevens

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Reply with quote  #25 

I think dropping it with the same hand allows for much more power on your serve.  Munson squared, Megan's Brother, and just about every other Chitown player who kranks it drops with the same hand.  Plus it looks much cooler.

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Jeff

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Reply with quote  #26 
The main difference I can see between the two is that Jr. bends his knees more and strikes the ball a little lower.
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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobPearse

Jerry, I will help you out anytime we can get together. But I am sorry, I am pretty sure I cannot play in LA this year and I will only be there Sat and Sun for the board meeting.

Rob

My serve is beyond help; I was thinking you could give a clinic for the superstars of the next generation.  Saturday would work.

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Weight watch; 238 lbs, down from 268 lbs on March 3rd; oops, back up to 249 as of 11/28/11; pinche, now 260 (08/09/12)
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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #28 

Megan's Brother, and just about every other Chitown player who kranks it drops with the same hand. QUOTE]

 

Megan's Brother cranks it?  You could have fooled us.

 

signed,

The Gallery at the George Lee Tournament


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Weight watch; 238 lbs, down from 268 lbs on March 3rd; oops, back up to 249 as of 11/28/11; pinche, now 260 (08/09/12)
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TStevens

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Reply with quote  #29 

hahahahaha

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sayno2fatjgarcia

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Reply with quote  #30 

Now, on the other hand, that Tyler Stevens dude, when not hitting those silly, weak "dominator" serves to Jose Cevallos, Jr. i.e. playing doubles against the LFC Doubles Team II, can flat out CRANK it!

 

signed,

the Gallery at the Collegiate Nationals at TAMU


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Weight watch; 238 lbs, down from 268 lbs on March 3rd; oops, back up to 249 as of 11/28/11; pinche, now 260 (08/09/12)
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